MicroSquirt, BMW's, and Turbocharging

[Arktasian]

Thought I would lead the title of this post with mention of M.S. as that is most likely one topic that other participants on this site might be most interested in, and I'm happy to share as much of it as others are willing to bear.
Its immediately and refreshingly obvious that turbocharging is normal here (got to avoid the pun potential), but my love of BMW's may be received on a Kawasaki based forum much like Harley's on other sites (taking no time to get right down to attitudes and aversion to mind numbing, exceptionally exaggerated noise to power generation levels courteous of H.D. ).
I'll add a few photos at a time and try to remain on topic.
Regards,

Lorne in BC

[Sandman]

Looks good! suppose I'll dive in with some MS questions. Have you done any live tuning on them at all? Obviously this would work on a dyno fine but my plans would to be tune it on the road and live tuning would mean side car hahaha. If not do you go out on the road do some logs, update the tunes once you get back?

[Arktasian]

I've taken live tuning to a level some will bristle at. The method to create your "MSQ" (tune file name for MS installations) and all of the various settings, maps, etc. etc. is to utilize a very operator friendly program named "Tuner Studio". This can be had for free (check it out for yourself and download an issue if you want to gain some familiarity) or you can purchase an enhanced version for peanuts, that takes things to an incredible level of logging, and all manner of features, suffice it to say it is really great. There are a number of table generators and prefilled values that are good to get working with on your particular set up.
Now with your lap top connected to your MS, you can enable various self learning programs that will update your VE table, and other afr files as you drive (edit added, when you "ride") in actual real life conditions if you like, or update when you want. Some guys use smaller electronic devices to do this, or carry lap top in a back pack. You can log operation and review later - all functions (that program is named "Megalog Viewer" and is remarkable in its own right). You can run logs and have Megalog viewer perform upgrades while you are parked too.
I have chosen to create a subtle frame mount over my fuel tank and have lap top sitting there as I ride on tuning trips. I do this on back country roads and strive to keep off the keyboard until I park again, but you can see everything that is going on (many different dashes and gauge combinations available). When you log operation and view problem spots, you can add edits and then go back over the same hils or zones that revealed the less than perfect operation. Or you can view/ focus in on one particular aspect or table and choose your own correction.
Its rewarding to be able to change any little blip or misbehaviour that might exist. I have a high speed gps that is available to enable horse power and other monitoring programs.
If any have questions or comments on this I will do my best to answer them.

[Charlie @ Evergreen]

Well now if you can come up with the whole package for the 750 turbo you will have a lot of interested boosters

Seen lot of Megasquirt builds here including one on a Sport Plane Racer we built some turbo's for some years ago. So to get a system together for the 750 would be awesome.

[Arktasian]

Being a newbie here for about a day, I haven't had a chance to review many/ most posts. I wonder if someone has done the school work on a K750/ MS conversion already over on the MS forums - I will take a look.
Typically however, if you are adding an MS to an engine that is already fuel injected, then you have most of the stuff in place, or only need to swap out a few specific items. Crank signal and a usable pattern that is recognized by MS is one hurdle, but there are now so many optional settings and set ups that I think pretty well everything has been done.
On crank and cam signals, my personal preference is for "Sequential Ignition" as I have a concept (supported by now dated teachings and turbo tech via experts like Hugh McGinnis) that wasted spark in some cases can ignite up into the inlet tract on wide overlap from stock cams when under high boost and experiencing retarded spark settings. I have actually documented the phenomenon witnessing carbon tracts up into the inlet and much improved power development once the upfit to sequential was added. Others haven't noted this taking place. Regardless, to gain sequential you only need a crank signal and cam signal off a VR or Hall sensor/ tone wheel arrangement. Or, a cam identifying signal can be derived from a map sensor that observes compression behaviour on cranking (& which I will be testing on the little BMW K75 project).
Perhaps I need to get another bike here and create a BOM. There has never been much interest amongst airhead owners (BMW boxer engine) to move away from beloved Bings and points but this is refreshingly engaging.

[Arktasian]

Question
- I'm striving to gain an understanding of the Kawasaki 750 turbo arrangement - looking through folders and not seeing many photos or info on the oiling systems, specifically scavenge off the cartridge back to sump (of course I may not be looking in the right area).
Seems the cartridge is pretty low, is there something to pull oil from the unit like a integral pump, or other? I have a low mount on the R bike and have used an electric pump to scavenge for a number of years but am moving towards a main pump plumbing connection along the lines of the RB racing type set up. Perhaps that is common knowledge or taboo here? Just asking and poking for what other systems use.

In edit - I found the below image off a manual that has been posted here, so answering the above question.

K750 Scavenging.pdf

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[georgew4714]

Theres still a pretty good mix here of purists that restore back to factory specs with simply remarkable results and those of us who are looking to upgrade and reinvent every nut and bolt to squeeze every ounce of power possible . So yeah , theres interest here .

LondonZ1 is doing a simply awesome build in the projects section with a sanctuary inspiration , you may want to check out . Hes in the wiring phase of installing a Motec engine management system with cam and crank sensors . Alot of us have been drooling over the project since its inception.

I myself have been building a resto-mod type turbo for years now the mechanical fabrication and upgrades come easy to me but the im lacking in the electrical / engine management aspects of performance upgrades . Our kawi turbos have made some pretty decent power numbers with only mechanical upgrades and around 200 HP with just a modified 4cyl version power commander as a piggy back to control the fuel .Beyond that some of us ( me not included ) have even added data logging , which intrigues me also .

I can easily understand how a bike with an older type ignition system or with carburetion can benefit greatly . But would love to learn how a microsquirt system can help a bike ( like the kawi turbo) that already has fuel injection and electronic ignition . Can this system take the place of the factory ECU , a Power Commander and add full data logging capabilities , but yet still work with our factory sensors ?

I feel i have a bunch of questions but need more backround on it to get the wheels turning . You have my interest , now get a kawi turbo !

BTW , very good job on the above pictured BMW . Plumbing work looks professional. Matter of fact the whole system looks well thought out . Did you do all the design and fabrication ? Whats your main area of expertise ?

[Arktasian]

Is it "George"?
Your comments and questions are varied and engaging. It is a holiday weekend here in BC, Canada and as such am limited to an "I" Phone for Internet and responses due to an unscheduled PC failure at home. One of my atributes is not pecking at these miniature keys so will toss out a "Coles Notes" reply for now.
I'm going to view "LondonZ1's" build, first glance is like opening a vortex and getting sucked right in for a non stop read so more time needed there. & do you have an on going post?
I have'nt joined this site for more than a very short time but already feel a pretty close affinity to what's going on here!
Short answer to your question is yes. Stand alone control is the norm, data logging on my antique "V2" vintage MicroSquirt possible in a couple of ways or via the tuning lap top, but I'm sure (& will need to check and link some reference from MS site) how this is a feature of newer ecu's.
On a previously injected engine it is quite common to work with all pre-existing sensors, components and even crank/cam sensors and tone wheels such that plug'n play systems are becoming very popular and models covered broadening constantly ( but understandably at a higher price)
Again, I will strive to answer that question better shortly. I have already sussed out a fair bit of understanding on your engines (guess I need to get out more) but my high level curiousity relates to how the ignition signal is developed, components, and such. That had a lot to do with ease of upfitting and/ or need to add alternate wheels and sensors.
I created all the designs and parts and fabricating on my R, with the exception of the Tig work which I traded off favours with a more talented friend. The throttle body is from a H*nda CTX650, and - well it's probably better if I use photos so more next week. I am an equipment designer, but silly spell corect on these little targets is killing me.
Regards, Lorne

[georgew4714]

Yes , my name is George. My build page is here , although its a slow and very budget restricted project but i havent lost steam and make more progress every year during the winter months .

http://www.750turbo.com/forum/viewtopic ... 17&t=14650

I know its crazy but all i use is a smart phone to veiw and contribute to the site . So have gotten quite used to it .

Our bikes make use of a cylinder head mounted temp sensor , an air box mounted air temp sensor and boost sensor , dual magnetic pickups at the end of the crank for ignition signal and finally a throttle position sensor .

[Arktasian]

Yes , my name is George. My build page is here , although its a slow and very budget restricted project but i havent lost steam and make more progress every year during the winter months .

http://www.750turbo.com/forum/viewtopic ... 17&t=14650

I know its crazy but all i use is a smart phone to veiw and contribute to the site . So have gotten quite used to it .

Our bikes make use of a cylinder head mounted temp sensor , an air box mounted air temp sensor and boost sensor , dual magnetic pickups at the end of the crank for ignition signal and finally a throttle position sensor .

I take my hat off to you George, if you've been utilizing a phone only.
The temp sensors are simple and if the resistance/ temperature values aren't known then they can be measured at 3 levels (ice water, room temp, boiling water) and entered manually to an MS submenu. Most TPS's are 3 wire and work regardless of make - closed throttle and wide open throttle values are burned during a sensor calibration session. A wide band sensor is highly advised, & integrates to MS plus dash gauge very easily. (I have found "14.7" by Alan To is one of the better/ affordable suppliers)
I'm interested to see some photos and such for the "magnetic" crank position system. I would see how that signal might jive with the various MS options - obviously would be better if I was actually doing it pysically.
Another useful tool is called the "Jim Stim" and that allows a myriad of test modes and sensor or trigger patterns and full pre run bench test - you never need sit there cranking your bike trying to start, or find out about a subtle rpm based glitch after committing to the road.
I should just add to my motorcycle collection really.
Perhaps tho, some photos of the ignition components might be posted, or a link to existing locations.

[Arktasian]

It would seem there is a common interest in data logging possibilities, mentioned by both Sandman, and George.
I think I'll continue to post some applicable information towards that and perhaps what it in all likely hood is leading towards - up fitting a Kawasaki with one of the standalone ecu's. (Charlie mentioned Megasquirt has surfaced here before although I haven't scored much on searching posts yet, I'll keep looking - on a lap top now ) Perhaps I'll add further content on my Boxer as well.
As well, it appears LondonZ1 is fitting a Motec and the stock triggering system is being modified with Honeywell "GT101" sensors on both crank and cam although I am unable to view any photos of those installed and if alternate tone wheels were fit. There does appear to be the classic photobucket issue on some of his previous material, perhaps they disappeared? Still hopeful someone will post a photo of the stock triggering set, or any alternate methods. I'll stick to MS content however.
There are so many ways to log that suffice it to say - you can choose your strategy based on many things, in my case low cost being important. This tends to begin with a thought towards what level of ecu might work if that is the ultimate direction. If you fancy building circuit boards and soldering, you can save a lot with one of the kits (DIYA is one good supplier amongst others, based in Georgia, USA). I use a cased preassembled microsquirt which is quite small and was around $400usd. You can go up from there with various models and plug'n play tech in the MS stuff.
All of these have logging capabilities. I phones and such can be utilized, see attachment below:

You should have an O2 wide band device on your bike really to properly set up or witness air fuel ratios going on (preaching to the choir here most likely as this is the place where boost is happening after all) & several of those models will allow logging too.
As mentioned, I log with a lap top on the bike and I know of several others that do that as well, but each to their own.
Another take on this is to set up and log operation of the stock controller and circuits (either as a lead in towards upfitting, or as an aide to tweaking via a piggyback). I have a desire to log the operation of a stock Motronic controller as running on a BMW and was set to capture that on a K75 project where stock sensors and ignition triggering would be running the bike with MS humming in background, but got caught up in building parts for it and leapfrogged right to the tear down phase. In part that is to see if everything can be left intact for a plug in approach, but I suspect the hall effect "bean can" devices may not be a clean enough & usable signal.
Hope this helps a little on that question.

[Arktasian]

More photos on the 83 R100RT. This has been modified, on the road for many years now, seems to gain various upgrades as the season ends here at the Wet Coast of BC Canada, now mostly staying as is. It is a fully faired, touring bike and as such fools most that look at it - pretty much a sleeper (unless provoked )
This image a few years stale and things have cleaned up since (fairly busy but before sending me under the bus, allow me to come back and explain some of the systems in operation shortly)

How I managed the exhaust prior to tig welding. It is all 321SS except for the cast "Y" portion that is a borrow from the CTX650 platform. Works nicely with my very small Mitsubishi - I'll post a performance map later.

How I handled sync recognition. The crankshaft position is where you normally have the anemic 280 stock BMW alternator* - removed and I had fitted a shive driven 900 watt unit (more is better, right). (* 280 when new, with a brisk tail wind. It just goes downhill from there and doesn't barely leave enough charge power for a stock airhead, let alone the add ons like fuel pump, injectors, etc. etc.)
Both are VR sensors (my favorite), a 36-1 tone wheel on the crank, and a single tooth for the cam just below it. Kind of messy image, got cleaned up as things were finished.

Below is how the cam sensor is stationed. That item is called the "bean can" and traditionally contains the hall sensor for crank position, but on the cam. As such is rather bouncy and poor res. I shortened it to gain clearance to the charge air cooler that sits slightly in front of.

This one is for fun. I have a right side "Toe Shift" lever much like the left side gear shift - connected to some subtle underside linkage that operates an exhaust bypass. Up is diversion through the right side muffler and a sedate and quiet note. Down is turbine open to ground for performance and "that time of life" I suppose.

[georgew4714]

I breezed through this quick while im on lunch, ill spend more time reading into it later . I may not be smart enough to ask the best wuestions but im intrigued by the whole thing . And with a boosted application data logging is almost a must once we start modifying anything . You can melt a piston pretty damn easy if your not careful . Im sure you know that as well . Lucky for most members here , what works and what doesn't is well documented . People can take these kawis as far as their comfort levels allow .

I personally like to push it and will most likely hole a piston at some point . Data logging with the right sensors would help greatly cause dyno visits get expensive , but are necessary .

There is a fix to allow you to see photobucket blocked images , i just dont know what the url is . Riturbo knows it and will chime in soon im sure .

[Arktasian]

I'm now quite subscribed, regardless of whether I am able to run across a 750T to purchase/ work on.
I'd like to know more about the Hitachi turbos, so will offer the performance map of my current TD025 Mitsubishi on the boxer (sort of a "if I show mine, will you show yours"? )

Mitsubishi TD025 MAP.pdf

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[Arktasian]

I can easily understand how a bike with an older type ignition system or with carburetion can benefit greatly . But would love to learn how a microsquirt system can help a bike ( like the kawi turbo) that already has fuel injection and electronic ignition . Can this system take the place of the factory ECU , a Power Commander and add full data logging capabilities , but yet still work with our factory sensors ?

George, I was thinking about the above question and I believe it hits the nail on the head.

A bike with carbs and points might seem an obvious target for a more efficient system, but on a pre-existing electronically controlled bike - why bother with an upfit for another controller? You would do it because you can have a standalone system that can have absolute control in more 3 dimensional ways than stock function that you can easily adjust or self correct, attainable at a rather low cost. Add in other circuits like boost control, nitrous, water/meth injection, idle control, altitude correction, Xtau fuel corrections, really just scratching the surface - and of course logging. All of the stock sensors you mentioned (and I note a MAF being mentioned?) are able to be integrated, but I haven't sussed out the ignition triggering which I am searching through files laid out by Lorcan, and what kind of a viable signal it would throw towards an MS ecu.
No point putting holes in your pistons on route to higher goals in the HP realm.