PC111 & Standard Injectors ?

How to fit a powercommander to tune your fuelling
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tack1000
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Re: PC111 & Standard Injectors ?

Post by tack1000 »

Ok I found this map and notes to myself. I really have tried to keep it simple, BUT is just isn't...Sorry.

I was running RC injectors 440cc, so 45% of 440 is 242 so very close the STD injector size OFF boost as most engines will be.
Then as the HP increases way out of the range of the STD Big K map the PC map increases the fuel flow by allowing the injectors to be open longer.
To the point were they are open the same amount of time as the STD map BUT pumping in more fuel because the injectors are bigger.
Then open even more than the STD map to pump even more fuel in ending up with a PLUS number.
If I had used a smaller injector then the Minus numbers would have been Plus numbers sooner in the map to compensate for the smaller amount of fuel at that point in the map.

The blue line is the path the map used as the boost and engine rpm increases thru the run. I know this from the data logger.

My notes above in red are to change the map 2%, 10% and 40% columns based on the AFR (Air fuel Ratio) again from the data logger.
I change the whole column but in reality I only needed to change the numbers within the blue line in the relevant column. It's just my way and easier.

The red numbers at the lower side are my change notes at full boost full RPM. The two blue numbers are the AFR at that point in the RPM/boost range.
You can see I am starting to run weaker as the RPM increases so I changed the set of number in the map to the RED number to keep the AFR nearer to 11.

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Lorcan
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Re: PC111 & Standard Injectors ?

Post by Lorcan »

Yep, apart from what I said earlier about dead time. As the PC uses a saturated circuit it might actually open the standard injectors more slowly causing them to flow less. If that happens then you'll need to put higher figures in the map to try to compensate, so overall it's probably not worth adding a PC to a stock injected bike.
First to 200mph (2006) and still the fastest (211mph)
Quickest turbo-only 8.69 @ 162mph
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Charlie @ Evergreen
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Re: PC111 & Standard Injectors ?

Post by Charlie @ Evergreen »

Thanks Tack & Lorcan .. I have a huge learning curve here ...OK...getting my education ..lol...I follow but not totally clear but will get better..gonna leave the engine as is and tune lower boost in race mode with the bit larger low impedance injectors I have installed ...

So the plan changes for another motor...
I got the PC3, Injectors...hey Padd..ya those were pricy as hell! I got the ones listed (380's) for a buckquarter for a nice flowed set. Have a head on way that is gonna be the bigger valves and some porting, will get a 810 when 84 steve comes up with a price that sounds good...crank is going to Falicon, fasteners etc and put in all my good upgrades..G's lockup, oil pump etc. I have 3 engines here so will put one on the bench and start in on it...since I am going out of my mind on this..thinking of using this Skyline turbo that has a super light turbine (Ceramic T25) that will light very early compared to the INL shaft. But till then I am gonna ride it and enjoy the engine as its put together in it..build the extra one and swap it out... better stock up on some beer for night life :humour
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tack1000
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Re: PC111 & Standard Injectors ?

Post by tack1000 »

Lorcan wrote:Yep, apart from what I said earlier about dead time. As the PC uses a saturated circuit it might actually open the standard injectors more slowly causing them to flow less. If that happens then you'll need to put higher figures in the map to try to compensate, so overall it's probably not worth adding a PC to a stock injected bike.
Just to confirm what I mean by STD size Injectors. I don't mean STD Low impedance injectors as fitted by Big K.

I mean STD "Size" High Impedance after market injectors.

I would never fit a PC to a Kawasaki STD Injector, even with mods of any kind.
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Charlie @ Evergreen
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Re: PC111 & Standard Injectors ?

Post by Charlie @ Evergreen »

Right... that was one of first things reading up that was clear...low's with stock ecu..high's with the PC...getting lil exciting around here. When I get the engine built..your map would be a good starting point to get to the tuner :)
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tack1000
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Re: PC111 & Standard Injectors ?

Post by tack1000 »

Charlie @ Evergreen wrote:gonna leave the engine as is and tune lower boost in race mode with the bit larger low impedance injectors I have installed ...
I tried fitting slightly larger injectors, MikB and Lorc was there that day and it would not run as the fuelling off boost and low down boost was waaaaayyyyyy too rich and she kept falling flat on her face almost throwing me over the bars.

It was at one of the first 200 MPH meetings I attended (not the sprint meeting with the dodgy switch and Dyna 2000 issue, Lorc)
This was right at the beginning, so 738, Brown wire cut and higher fuel pressure.
NO PC.
I changed back to the STD size Injectors and she flew down the track.
Be weary of bigger low impedance injectors running on the STD ECU, you have no low down control.

You can only fit bigger injectors if you are using a PC and then they would be the High Impedance units.
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Charlie @ Evergreen
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Re: PC111 & Standard Injectors ?

Post by Charlie @ Evergreen »

Alright...I can get my stock injectors cleaned and flowed put back in...not sure why ..but the RC's I put in are dead smooth everywhere no hesitations or bucks.... normal riding is dead on...only did one hard pull 2nd 3rd and it went like a raped ape... :humour The injectors were suppose to be 270 or 290's..can't remember....I have to look up the eBay item. But I will follow your advice and put the cleaned stockers back in asap ..thanks Tack!
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tack1000
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Re: PC111 & Standard Injectors ?

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Charlie @ Evergreen wrote:Alright...I can get my stock injectors cleaned and flowed put back in...not sure why ..but the RC's I put in are dead smooth everywhere no hesitations or bucks.... normal riding is dead on...only did one hard pull 2nd 3rd and it went like a raped ape... :humour The injectors were suppose to be 270 or 290's..can't remember....I have to look up the eBay item. But I will follow your advice and put the cleaned stockers back in asap ..thanks Tack!

wow, hold on Tiger. If they are working fine that's another story. Read this post I found...

http://www.750turbo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6330

I may have picked a size that was way off. If yours is ok what's the AFR. You are recording it? Right?
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Charlie @ Evergreen
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Re: PC111 & Standard Injectors ?

Post by Charlie @ Evergreen »

mmm.... I have to get down to the tuner ...After the mod'd header/billet turbo installed I set up race mode...put the FP at 41 and adjusted the TPS slightly rich .so its safe to ride around. No horsing it...I did once cuz I was being stupid I guess...wanted to see what it felt like. No detonation..but not doing it twice...tuner time. But jeez its a lot faster and sounds more racy! Wish we knew what injectors you had...and maybe these are not as big as the seller claimed.
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tack1000
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Re: PC111 & Standard Injectors ?

Post by tack1000 »

I still have them in a box somewhere marked don't fecking use this bedsteads. I'll have a look tonight.
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Charlie @ Evergreen
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Re: PC111 & Standard Injectors ?

Post by Charlie @ Evergreen »

lol...thanks Tack..I know I'll need your help and others most likely as I get deeper into this... :beer
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Lorcan
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Re: PC111 & Standard Injectors ?

Post by Lorcan »

There's a couple of other great reasons to use a PC as opposed to any other method.

1) Every man and his dog knows how to map them. Meaning any dyno operator anywhere. If you rock up with a Heath Robinson style contraption with "Pull lever A, turn resistor B clockwise, operate switch C only above 5000rpm" type instructions he's basically got no chance of getting the thing running right.

2) It means all the standard gauges and warning light still work. If you run a standalone ECU none of this stuff will work, and there is a massive learning curve with those things.
First to 200mph (2006) and still the fastest (211mph)
Quickest turbo-only 8.69 @ 162mph
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