Bums to Bonniville- gsxr 750 turbo

[jmckechnie@live.ca]

So after buying my first 7fitty turbo and drag racing at the mission raceway something dawned on me.. i like going fast.. VERY fast for that matter. A friend i work with told me about a project CB 450 bound for the salt flats in Utah entering in a class with a speed record of something in the 130mph range,and I instantly offered to drive for him as hes somewhat of a giant by canadian standards. As we decided on our plan of attack ( convert to efi, turbo, Mega squirt. ect) i got thinking about running my 750T down there next summer as well. however my bikes got a really solid running motor and i just cant bring my self to start tinkering with it( yet ). BUT i have a 1990 gsxr 750 with a spare motor.. My plans as it stands right now- build a turbo e.f.i 750 gsxr running a GT2056 and some kind of throttlebodies ( havent found a set i like yet) and kind of model it after the only turbo bike to live up to its expectations. i plan on installing an I/C, aftermarket oil cooler, some sort of dual stage waste gate system,and lots of sensors and gadgets to record and control this thing. Ive read almost the entire MEGA MANUAL for MS and like the idea of running a stand alone ECU.

My question to all the 750 turbo racers out there, as a gathering of collective experience---> I want to run 225mph ( 360km/h).
Whats it going to take to build an engine to achieve my goal ( and world record in that class )
What would you recommend i do to strengthen the motor?
Make it as reliable as possible ( do reliable and high power even go together in the same sentence?)
make it handle as SAFE as possible?

Im more excited about this build then any other build ive ever done! just the thought of running my bike on the holy salt flats all out makes me smile and drift off in to a speed craving abyss . To be honest, with all the stuff ive read on this website and experience we all have to bring to the table,i believe we can break the land speed record! Anyone willing to help, id sure appreciate it! :o

[Lorcan]

Before we get into all that, I have a question.

















































How much money have you got?

[Betterthanfabio]

One problem I see is that we know about the Kawasaki motor & turbo system, neither of which you will be using.

[jmckechnie@live.ca]

Lorcan: I don't know what kinda dough I'm going to need, I've got money comming in from a Supermoto bike im selling and other then that, I'm just going to peice it together as money comes in.

MR Fabio sir: I would say with all experience of do's and donts you've learned with the 750turbo there's gotta be some stuff you'd be able to extrapolate to another bike.
( on a quick side note, I'm replacing the intake manifold boots attached to the engine and I noticed there's no ram tubes inside my airbox? Aren't there supposed to be some in there? Also, my throttle body set doesn't appear to stop the butterfly valves at wot.. They go about 20% further- how can I tell if I have 750 or 1100s on there)

[Lorcan]

The 750 ones are 29mm, the 1100 ones are 35mm. You need to fit the stop from the 750 bodies if you have 1100.

[GregCampbell]

... on a quick side note, I'm replacing the intake manifold boots attached to the engine and I noticed there's no ram tubes inside my airbox? Aren't there supposed to be some in there?

Velocity stacks (bellmouths) are a GOOD THING. Adding one to an intake port increases its flow by ~15%

They are sorta optional on a street bike - if you have a monster turbo and endless boost. For a LSR bike hunting that last MPH, I'd consider them mandatory.

There's some good - if somewhat hairball - reading at http://www.profblairandassociates.com/RET_Articles.html
Look for the Bellmouth article, among others.

[Lorcan]

So after buying my first 7fitty turbo and drag racing at the mission raceway something dawned on me.. i like going fast.. VERY fast for that matter. A friend i work with told me about a project CB 450 bound for the salt flats in Utah entering in a class with a speed record of something in the 130mph range,and I instantly offered to drive for him as hes somewhat of a giant by canadian standards. As we decided on our plan of attack ( convert to efi, turbo, Mega squirt. ect) i got thinking about running my 750T down there next summer as well. however my bikes got a really solid running motor and i just cant bring my self to start tinkering with it( yet ). BUT i have a 1990 gsxr 750 with a spare motor.. My plans as it stands right now- build a turbo e.f.i 750 gsxr running a GT2056 and some kind of throttlebodies ( havent found a set i like yet) and kind of model it after the only turbo bike to live up to its expectations. i plan on installing an I/C, aftermarket oil cooler, some sort of dual stage waste gate system,and lots of sensors and gadgets to record and control this thing. Ive read almost the entire MEGA MANUAL for MS and like the idea of running a stand alone ECU.
My question to all the 750 turbo racers out there, as a gathering of collective experience---> I want to run 225mph ( 360km/h).
Whats it going to take to build an engine to achieve my goal ( and world record in that class )
What would you recommend i do to strengthen the motor?
Make it as reliable as possible ( do reliable and high power even go together in the same sentence?)
make it handle as SAFE as possible?
Im more excited about this build then any other build ive ever done! just the thought of running my bike on the holy salt flats all out makes me smile and drift off in to a speed craving abyss . To be honest, with all the stuff ive read on this website and experience we all have to bring to the table,i believe we can break the land speed record! Anyone willing to help, id sure appreciate it! :o

WE? Who the fuck is WE?

I'll address a few points here and I'm Jeff and some others will chip in.

The GT2056 isn't big enough. You're going to need 300hp to run 225mph, and if you're going to do it at elevation you're going to have to run more boost than at sea level because the air is so thin. So you're going to need a bigger turbo. Jeff went 204mph (I think) on a GT20, but that's a looooong way from 225mph.

Regarding strengthening the motor you'd be best speaking to people who have experience of it. People like Sims & Rohm (if they are still about), oldskoolsuzuki.info and some drag racers. You'll probably need rods, and you'll almost certainly need a lockup clutch (and I don't know if anyone makes one for the 750). Forged pistons too. And a high octane fuel like Sunoco 120+.

Regarding handling I suggest going for modern wheels, tyres and suspension. Busa stuff or similar. Don't worry about the weight, weight is good.

Read Jim Short's posts on Bonneville.

Budget on plenty of dyno time, and more than one trip to the salt. It's harder than it looks....

[Lorcan]

For a LSR bike hunting that last MPH, I'd consider them mandatory.

I left them out of my bike to give you guys a chance...

[GregCampbell]

Play with the boot calculator at http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/webadviser

Figure race gas, 4 valve+ VE, peak power at 11000 RPM ??, a water / ice intercooler with .9 effectiveness, 12.5 psi atmospheric at 4225feet (Bonneville, right?), 60f/15c temp (if you get out real early in the morning).

The verdict is that you'll need over 3 bar of boost at 30 pounds per minute.
The GTX2867R is suggested.

As a wise man once quipped.....

How much money have you got?

Good luck, you crazy bastard! :rockbanana

[jmckechnie@live.ca]

i found my throttlebodies- 2007-2008 gsxr 1000 @ 44mm and almost the same spacing as my slingshot manifolds. I believe all ill have to do is space them out inbetween no2/3 cyl to make them fit. Anyone know a reliable source for flow rates on stock injectors? never heard of a water/ice intercooler. ive seen intercoolers water cooled before, never heard of ice? can you enlighten me Yes ill be doing my runs in bonneville, and i think their event fuel is EBC 110 race gas.

I tried playing with the boot calc, i find it more informative to talk to somebody on their staff- however ive heard from several people today to run a GT28, and have one main goal in mind with building the engine- FLOW! reduce restriction seemed to be the main concern people had- which only makes sence.

Thoughts about compression ratio? general conclusions from todays convos with people is from 9:1-10:1
Got suggested to run a 110/110 timing for my cams ( dont really know what hes talking about )
Ordering my MS and throttlebodies tomorrow! turbo is next week so i better make up my mind. An ex dragger told me to oversize the turbo to be able to flow more at a lower psi and stay in a better efficiency range for the turbo. thoughts on that?

[GregCampbell]

Without knowing a hell of a lot, my first thought is that 10:1 will be a big ask at ~+45PSI / 3+ bar. Detonation might be forestalled with with a dry ice intercooler or some other exotic charge chiller. But sheer engine stress at peak cylinder pressure must also count for something. For a GSXR-based engine, something like 6:1 might be "all she can take, Captain." I dunnow....

Here are some graphs from Maximum Boost that give some idea of the relationship.





If you can cool the air below ambient, you can extrapolate the lines on the 2nd plot beyond 100% efficiency.

Suggest you look into the 1980's F1 Turbo engines and see what sort of boost and CR they ran. That might give you some ballpark numbers to play with.

[GregCampbell]

i found my throttlebodies- 2007-2008 gsxr 1000 @ 44mm and almost the same spacing as my slingshot manifolds. I believe all ill have to do is space them out inbetween no2/3 cyl to make them fit. Anyone know a reliable source for flow rates on stock injectors? never heard of a water/ice intercooler. ive seen intercoolers water cooled before, never heard of ice? can you enlighten me Yes ill be doing my runs in bonneville, and i think their event fuel is EBC 110 race gas.

I tried playing with the boot calc, i find it more informative to talk to somebody on their staff- however ive heard from several people today to run a GT28, and have one main goal in mind with building the engine- FLOW! reduce restriction seemed to be the main concern people had- which only makes sence.

Thoughts about compression ratio? general conclusions from today's convos with people is from 9:1-10:1

Got suggested to run a 110/110 timing for my cams ( don't really know what hes talking about ) Ordering my MS and throttle bodies tomorrow! turbo is next week so i better make up my mind. An ex dragger told me to oversize the turbo to be able to flow more at a lower psi and stay in a better efficiency range for the turbo. thoughts on that?

I don't think he knows either.

Assuming you get one of those 28xx series turbos, it should be approximately the 'right' size from the start. That's the whole point of the Boost Advisor app.

I'd guess (a total SWAG!) that a supercooled intercooler would consist of a tank of deeply chilled oil (or maybe a high pressure tank of liquid CO2.) pumped through an air/water (liquid) intercooler. Or dunk and air/air IC in a tank of the same. Watch for ice formation, etc.!

Cam timing will depend on the duration, boost, backpressure, and a zillion other factors. In general, longer duration 'sporty' cams will invite reversion and other maladies.


This will probably sound (and likely is!) snotty, arrogant, and/or just plain nosey, but I think you need to think this out a little more before you haul off and start buying shit. The questions you are asking seem rather vague, and I get the impression you don't understand all that much about the physics of turbocharging. Find a copy of Corky Bell's Maximum Boost (PM me if you get stuck) or something similar - http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_ ... 20handbook - and read the thing from cover to cover. Ask fellow LSR nutcases how and what they did to go fast. Those weirdos must have a forum somewhere ... Study, plan, THEN start building.

[Lorcan]

They do have a forum at http://www.landracing.com

I'm on there somewhere

If the rules permit it you can use anti-freeze as the charger coolant.

[turbochop]

Your probably be better off buying a project bike that was used or was to be used for the salt, In my opinion the salt flats and two wheels are not the best mix. Your gsxr 750 crank is cast unlike the forged steel crank of the turbo 750. Gordy Smith is in his first retirement and has lots of parts (KZ), his promod bike 400 plus horses is just sitting, but likely big bucks too....Good Luck

[jmckechnie@live.ca]

Greg: you pretty much nailed it on the head: i dont have the slightest clue of how to build the ideal motor. Hence why im here, and spending hours and hours reading up on things. Its a lot to soak in. One thing im finding that hasnt failed---> everyone seems to have a different path to obtain the same goal. some say 'do this', some say 'NO DUMBASS! dont do that, do this!'. its gunna be a long and hair-greying road. But im doing it, made my mind up and i just need to keep plugging away.

Thanks a bunch for those pics and to lorc for the link. Ill add it to my list of things to read :razz:

As for my turbo-> heard from a guy on 750turbo to 'study,plan,then build'.. strange guy.. goes by the name greg or something.. anyhow, im taking the advise and going to wait untill i have a plan in place before buying.The more i read the more i find out i dont know. The REAL reason is that my truck just got tires put on all around (6 plus a spare) to pass an out of province inspection which sucked dry my bike fund for now. thats my excuse anyways.

Im a refrigeration mechanic by trade and ive been trying to think up some sort of disposable refrigerant to use to cool the intercooler, similar to your ideas. Very close actually. The problem im having is having means to refrigerate my intercooler for a few miles while im driving.

F1 turbo engines..i should just get one of those and save my self the headache!